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ELO Salon - Shared screen with speaker view
Deena Larsen
01:21:07
HI all, welcome
Lyle Skains
01:22:03
I’m just finishing a snack, and no one wants to see/hear me munching, so I’ll join in in a sec!
Deena Larsen
01:22:21
lyle your photo is wonderulf
Lyle Skains
01:22:40
Hah! thank you. We should all take photos a few drinks in…lol
Waliya Yohanna
01:23:05
Lyle is here again!
Lyle Skains
01:23:49
I’m everywhere!
Johannah Rodgers
01:26:57
It is like being in an elevator with screen sharing!
Deena Larsen
01:29:21
A belated intro"
Deena Larsen
01:29:30
We will explore working and dealing with IRC, MUDs, MOOs, LPMUDs,talkers, CuSeeMe, PowWow (created by Native Americans), newsgroups andnewsgroup experimentations, and so forth. There's an enormous amount ofwork and experimental aesthetics all through these - for example IRCpieces that literally disappear on the screen as they're formed, given thenature of IRC - and all of this history is completely overlooked. The MUDsand MOOs (etc.) were incredibly dynamic in complex story-telling, spacemanipulation, and so forth; they were definitely hypertextual.Things to think about:Broadening the field to encompass deep fakery, advertising, and so on ( Guy Maddin's online work where one of his films changes everytime you watch it, or the Second Life work of Gazira Babel)Examining textual and diegetic dynamics wherever they are found.Alan's work covers many of these areas, including Access Grid, Second Life, Linux (perl, awk, grep,sed, emacs Eliza mods, ytalk), localhost Open Sim, MacGrid (and how thaten
Johannah Rodgers
01:30:05
I love the graphics!
Johannah Rodgers
01:30:29
They look like drawings.
Johannah Rodgers
01:31:21
the conversation in the car or with the car?
Deena Larsen
01:31:24
Immersive operations--manipulating things
Deena Larsen
01:31:36
definable--thinking things...
Johannah Rodgers
01:31:38
immersive v. definable operations
Johannah Rodgers
01:31:50
phenomenology of counting v. abstraction of counting.
Johannah Rodgers
01:31:54
was this published?
Johannah Rodgers
01:32:30
1974 video with K. Acker in which the two appear to be having sex while reciting one’s work. Was this part of fluxus?
Johannah Rodgers
01:32:56
The body and theory are inextricably combined.
Johannah Rodgers
01:33:06
Started thinking about game space as a set of rules.
Deena Larsen
01:33:20
Game space defined as set of rules--this works still in 2020 with the game space screen experience.
Johannah Rodgers
01:33:48
Game space and edge space. Anomalies can appear when the two meet. Gazeber Zelli. Doing a lot with edge space.
Deena Larsen
01:34:03
Edge space--the anomalies both in game space or objects--somewhat akin to being in Discord while in twitch while sipping coffee--or in Alan's case while having other bodily experiences.
Deena Larsen
01:34:47
Blank space--drawn on old maps--here be dragons
Johannah Rodgers
01:34:56
Zelli extended the ceiling height in Second Life. Edge space can generate anomalies. Finally, there was blank space, going to the far north and what the arctic and antarctic meant in the 1850s. You start to fill in your blanks of your knowledge of the world with chimeras.
Johannah Rodgers
01:35:41
Looking at early maps, you see that dragons are projected onto blank space. Mandeville projected onto Ethiopia a class of people that were physiologically “suited” to his imagined sense of what the climate and geography was like.
Johannah Rodgers
01:36:05
How does generative poetry relate to or not relate to embodiment?
Johannah Rodgers
01:36:16
Alan feels that they may be disjunctive.
Deena Larsen
01:36:42
Poems come with the experience of playing with the edges...of game space, of reality
Deena Larsen
01:37:05
relationships to body, to religion, e.g., Emily Dickinson's mystery of her life about her.
Johannah Rodgers
01:37:27
Generative poetry seems too abstract and to lack a connection to the complications of human psychologies. Abstraction seems more problematic. Somatic Ghosting!
Kirill Azernyi
01:37:28
Is anyone recording?
Johannah Rodgers
01:37:33
The body is a ghost.
Deena Larsen
01:37:36
Inhabiting someone else's mind, living in someone else's edge--somatic ghosting. The body is the ghost.
Johannah Rodgers
01:37:37
Yes. this is being recorded.
Johannah Rodgers
01:37:53
I’m just taking notes.
Kate Tyrol
01:38:28
Your notes are enormously helpful to me, Johannah, thank you so much.
Deena Larsen
01:38:31
We will somehow coalesce this into an article--actually, we are relying heavily on Johannah.
Johannah Rodgers
01:38:50
“I try to bring bodies into code.” I try to do the opposite of the abstraction, imitation, and simulation of generative poetry.
Renee Carmichael
01:38:51
recording and somatic ghosting?
Deena Larsen
01:39:22
Kathy Acker --set in the future, Instead of shoving things into genres, commercials, (this is the artwork, this is how it is sold) Rather, we should look and see wwhat it *IS*
Johannah Rodgers
01:39:27
@renee, perhaps we could ask Alan to talk more about why he does not see glitch opportunities in generative poetry
Johannah Rodgers
01:39:51
I no longer remember how to use some of these tools. I was only using lower ASCII and linux at the beginning (date?)
Deena Larsen
01:40:37
The tools we had change, and I t is interesting to see how generative programs were done with early programming...
Johannah Rodgers
01:40:59
1975: working with an editor (which one?); Terrac minicomputer. Pascal. A program that would be an editor that would make substitutions. Writing something urgent that the computer would replace words in.
Deena Larsen
01:41:26
Of course the program interferes with the writer--this is very reminiscent of the ELO talk I am blanking on, where the program writes the writer and vice versa...
Johannah Rodgers
01:41:57
Communication with Russian Refuseniks between Alan’s Mom and different officials and people. Coding/Bugging/What Can’t Be Said.
Deena Larsen
01:41:57
X objects appear as the tex changes
Johannah Rodgers
01:42:00
Ooooooohhhhhh!
Johannah Rodgers
01:42:35
“Workers of the World Unite” is another text that was manipulated. Is this not a type of generative poetry?
christine
01:42:39
yes
Johannah Rodgers
01:44:11
Y Talk: a program that you can do absolutely amazing things in. It still runs on my machine. I talk to my own terminal with it. Y Talk has a divided screen (upper and lower); the upper part is where you type in and the lower is for reading. Two simultaneous views allow you the experience of simulating conversation in writing. This can represent the body in a way that IRC cannot.
Deena Larsen
01:44:23
These are all examples of generative poetry programmed in the 70s--
Johannah Rodgers
01:44:42
Who developed Y Talk?
Johannah Rodgers
01:45:13
When Alan says he was working with Linux in the 1970s, does he mean Unix?
Deena Larsen
01:45:26
A way to generate elit with two or more people...
Deena Larsen
01:45:40
@Dene, I wonder if we can resurrect these tools and have people play them
Johannah Rodgers
01:45:45
With Talk, we can save ourselves.
Johannah Rodgers
01:45:59
I’m talking to myself with YTalk.
Johannah Rodgers
01:46:10
MOOs, MUDs, and Talkers. Donna, what is a Talker?
Deena Larsen
01:46:24
https://linux.die.net/man/1/ytalk
Deena Larsen
01:46:30
YTalk is in essence a multi-user chat program. It works almost exactly like the UNIX talk program and even communicates with the same talk daemon(s), but YTalk allows for multiple connections.
Deena Larsen
01:46:47
Current MaintainerAndreas Kling<keso@impul.se>Original AuthorBritt Yenne
Andrew Klobucar
01:47:29
Are we reproducing this process now by typing out Alan’s comments while he talks, we take notes and present and distribute our comments?
Johannah Rodgers
01:47:35
IRC has channels. The advantage of using IRC is that if you have a channel with 50-500 people, you can hack into the channel and kick people out and change your name and cut and paste multi-genre texts into chat.
Deena Larsen
01:47:37
You can hack into cybersex and kick people out and put othert text in, so you can contrast texts--like Paul Celon with gutter talk
Johannah Rodgers
01:47:40
It helps me concentrate, Andrew.
Andrew Klobucar
01:47:43
Are we bodies behind the text?
Caitlin Fisher
01:48:24
i feel a bit sorry for people who get their hopes up that Celan might be available for dirty talk ;)
Deena Larsen
01:48:26
It is interesting to think that we talk and chat with the text--the bodies behind the typing, the ghosts in the letters
Johannah Rodgers
01:48:31
Dialog is a programming language that Alan used.
Johannah Rodgers
01:48:36
@caitlan lol
Andrew Klobucar
01:48:47
It helps us all concentrate
Deena Larsen
01:49:15
There is an amazing aesthetic in the interfaces...
Johannah Rodgers
01:49:17
I like how Dialog could be used to visualize conversational loops between humans and machines.
Johannah Rodgers
01:49:37
Quick and dirty use of tools.
Deena Larsen
01:49:50
Alan is making programs that allow him to think in ways somewhere other than himself
Renee Carmichael
01:49:53
a relationship to thinking with others, with other bodies
Johannah Rodgers
01:50:14
Semantic thing: .pl are Perl objects. I didn’t know Florian Kramer did programming.
Deena Larsen
01:50:57
@Dene, could WSU host programs?
Johannah Rodgers
01:51:14
.pl space, eliminate .pl, put name of file, reverse arrow; We can use all of the programs that Alan is showing us.
Johannah Rodgers
01:52:34
perl eliminate.pl < sample >zz
Johannah Rodgers
01:52:48
asking the computer to eliminate what you have just written?
Johannah Rodgers
01:53:01
How does it know what to use as a replacement?
Johannah Rodgers
01:53:11
@Andrew?????
Andrew Klobucar
01:53:45
Working on it for the workbench. I have one or two
Johannah Rodgers
01:54:07
What is the name of this project, “Semantics”?
Johannah Rodgers
01:54:15
I see, they are perl applications.
Johannah Rodgers
01:54:48
It would be interesting to see how these perl apps relate to the functions in the Language Workbench
Andrew Klobucar
01:55:11
@ Johannah I agree
Johannah Rodgers
01:55:43
The video work Alan has been doing also relates to Semantics.
Deena Larsen
01:56:18
It is interesting to see how the aesthetics of moving text and generative text evolve...
Johannah Rodgers
01:56:48
2005/2006: at WVU virtual environments lab: equipment was from the late 1990s. Computer with no screen; had to boot it up and configure it each time we ran it.
Johannah Rodgers
01:57:23
Reproducing the room in its totality via cameras being sent to meet another virtual room. Places become connected virtually.
Deena Larsen
01:57:26
The access grid, set up on four computers, and you could see another room in another university --
Deena Larsen
01:58:18
Alan saw this as eerie, and that you could send the image around the world.... how soon we forget how magical and gho(a)stly the modern tech was-and now we think nothing of seeing into 15 people's homes at once.
Deena Larsen
01:58:35
We are ghosts on screen now reaching into your lives.
Deena Larsen
02:00:38
I think for those of us around when the first "zoom" the first conferencing were around and we had our first taste of seeing into other roms "live"-- it is like the experience of the first telephone, the first morse code--getting the communication magically from body to body, via wires.
Deena Larsen
02:01:45
And now, just as our generation
Deena Larsen
02:02:09
takes the phone for granted, the next generation will take instantaneous communication for granted.
Johannah Rodgers
02:02:26
@Deena, it is often astonishing to me just how unaware of this history people in computer science are.
Johannah Rodgers
02:02:38
We should put together a digital course on this topic.
Deena Larsen
02:03:26
Searching for the bodies in second life, searching for the babies--this is looking at ghosts in the machine searching for other ghosts in the machine.
Deena Larsen
02:04:01
@Johannah, @Dene, yes, the history is worth preserving and teaching--Lori Emerson at UC Boulder Colorado
Waliya Yohanna
02:04:03
this course should be called archeology of e-lit or the history of e-lit
Waliya Yohanna
02:04:11
I propose
Deena Larsen
02:04:13
Media ARchaeology Lab would be a good host for such a course.
Johannah Rodgers
02:04:34
@Denna excellent idea!
Johannah Rodgers
02:05:44
Superhero Tethered: done through altered motion capture files and altered motion capture software. Year?
Deena Larsen
02:06:00
It is hard to convey the wonder at the tech now that we have somuch other tech and are in a completely different aesthetic 20 and 30 and 50 years later.
Johannah Rodgers
02:06:29
We had the opportunity to re-write the moCap interface.
Johannah Rodgers
02:07:12
“Cooking Chicken in the Dirt"
Renee Carmichael
02:07:30
It’s all about the present / presence
Lyle Skains
02:08:24
I love seeing everyone’s bookmarks on screen sharing.
Lyle Skains
02:08:40
It’s like being in their home and studying their bookshelves!
Johannah Rodgers
02:09:06
Alan: MRI video memoir post-seizure.
Deena Larsen
02:09:51
Yes, Lyle, seeing glimpses into computers...
Deena Larsen
02:09:59
is like seeing glimpses into homes
Lyle Skains
02:10:19
@Deena, you’re the tops at that!
Johannah Rodgers
02:11:33
The sounds of the MRI!
Johannah Rodgers
02:12:14
I have long wanted to do a project with the Mammogram machine. This is inspiring me to actually do it.
Johannah Rodgers
02:12:31
“We are all ghosts” in relation to the radiation around us.
Renee Carmichael
02:12:41
and this is all remembered
Deena Larsen
02:12:48
We are experiencing the ghost of the experience recorded in the body, so are we three levels into ghosting at this point?
Deena Larsen
02:13:54
Codework in the real world--1899 flood in Johnstown
Deena Larsen
02:15:02
The bridge where locomotives, bodies, horses and all smashed into and burnt is still standing.
Johannah Rodgers
02:15:33
Jonestown, VA?
Deena Larsen
02:15:36
So this work is in real life--an SOS code on the still standing bridge where so many souls lost there lives, and where, presumabily, real ghosts still haunt
Johannah Rodgers
02:16:18
The project manipulated existing lights that had been installed for decorative purposes. Site of the greatest flood tragedy in the U.S.
Johannah Rodgers
02:16:26
Connection to physicality.
Johannah Rodgers
02:17:00
I liked how multidimensional that connection to physicality became in the MRI piece.
Deena Larsen
02:17:08
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Flood
Deena Larsen
02:17:52
https://www.jaha.org/attractions/the-stone-bridge/
Deena Larsen
02:18:52
I love the idea of guerrilla elit-ing--taking the physical objects and making them into a meaningful piece
Dene Grigar
02:19:30
Thank you for organizing this wonderful event with Alan. I have a 9 am meeting on Zoom and need to say goodbye. Hugs to everyone!
Johannah Rodgers
02:19:51
@Deena me, too!
Kirill Azernyi
02:20:18
see you, Mrs.Grigar, Johannah!
Johannah Rodgers
02:20:36
Great to see you Dene!
Johannah Rodgers
02:22:08
Thank you, Alan!!!!!! We have so many questions!!!!!!!
Johannah Rodgers
02:22:39
Are they the same ghosts???????
Deena Larsen
02:24:44
Proposals: 1) Develop an "archeology of e-lit or the history of e-lit" with Media Archaeology lab to make these programs available--a living archaelogy (emulators)?
Bill Bly
02:24:51
Sorry I have to go — astounding presentation, Alan — best to everyone!
Lyle Skains
02:25:03
Good to see you, Bill!
Deena Larsen
02:25:06
Bill we ar looking forward to your presentation next month!
Deena Larsen
02:25:25
Sept 8 - Bill BLy! 1500 UTC!!!
Kirill Azernyi
02:25:27
See you later, Bill! Good to see you
Bill Bly
02:25:34
Yes, thanks — I'm inspired!
Kirill Azernyi
02:26:59
guerilla - or tactical e-liting, very inspiring, yes!
Deena Larsen
02:27:59
Ok, everyone go out, find a historical building, and start putting lights code on it, and video!
Deena Larsen
02:28:12
I'll head to the nearest graveyard ;P
Deena Larsen
02:28:32
For real and text and ghosts in the machine
Deena Larsen
02:28:39
and ghosts in the body
Johannah Rodgers
02:28:56
@Deena, could we go back to Stephanie’s question?
Deena Larsen
02:30:07
Sure, can you reprise Stephanie's question?
Deena Larsen
02:30:14
I don't see it in the chat?
Johannah Rodgers
02:32:10
renee
Andrew Klobucar
02:32:19
Alan, you can send those stats to so many databases that would appreciate them.
Johannah Rodgers
02:32:21
sorry. that was a typo.
Deena Larsen
02:32:55
The compendium of works provides statistics (how many times Alan said "suicide" or "Sad" in his hundreds of thousands of words of writing...
Andrew Klobucar
02:33:03
I’d like to ask a question about the sheer volume of his work, and where it fits in this poetics. He has an interesting modality… right?
Deena Larsen
02:33:30
Alan definitely has an interesting and unique modality...
Deena Larsen
02:34:51
What it means to speak, who is lisetening--for example Black lives matter--now we hear from people who were too afraid tospeak until now...
Deena Larsen
02:35:21
Just jump in with questions, folks.
Johannah Rodgers
02:35:30
Who is speaking, who is acting, who is listening.
Kirill Azernyi
02:35:37
Got one!
Andrew Klobucar
02:36:11
We have ICE-IS
Johannah Rodgers
02:36:19
I’d append to Deena and Andrew’s questions the question of whether these works actually are intended to be “read,” and if not, why not.
Andréa Catrópa
02:36:22
Sorry, I have to leave now. Thank you all!
Johannah Rodgers
02:36:32
Great to see you Andrea!
Andréa Catrópa
02:36:48
Great to see you too. Bye!
Lyle Skains
02:36:53
Bye, Andréa!
Deena Larsen
02:37:08
Andrea, do I have your email?
Vinícius Pereira
02:37:35
Deena, it is andreacatropa@gmail.com
Deena Larsen
02:37:42
Thanks
Johannah Rodgers
02:37:58
I’m interested in this question of disposability and digital objects, particularly in relation to the environmental impacts of computing.
Lyle Skains
02:38:15
@Johannah, ooooh, me too.
Deena Larsen
02:38:56
Interesting to think that Alan's interest in working quickly (fast music, fast text) works with the nightclub culture, the disposability of the experience...
Johannah Rodgers
02:39:08
hmmmmmm.
Johannah Rodgers
02:39:18
yes!
Renee Carmichael
02:40:16
A weaving of experience, the present, in objects and then the moment passes, moves onto the next weaving
Deena Larsen
02:40:46
The time factor--everytime you post something, others know you are alive...
Deena Larsen
02:41:19
Artists work on a daily basis--having the time to write, writing is like breathing--you just keep doing it
Deena Larsen
02:41:58
Playing day in and day out--the practice, the continual praxis
Deena Larsen
02:42:45
The economy as well, making money or not making money...
Deena Larsen
02:42:58
ELO becoming a fan club of people thinking alike...
Lyle Skains
02:43:04
becoming?
Johannah Rodgers
02:43:13
I think Krill has a question.
Johannah Rodgers
02:43:16
Kirill.
Deena Larsen
02:43:16
We need to embrace other paxes
Johannah Rodgers
02:43:21
ha ha.
Deena Larsen
02:43:36
Like Lyle's hunt for elit--evertything can be elit
Deena Larsen
02:44:14
Mongolaian bard epics--trsanscription at 720 pages-- relates to literature... no necessary to be digital--guerilla lit
Lyle Skains
02:44:25
To quote Espen… the problem with the ELO is the E, the L, and the O. lol
Caitlin Fisher
02:44:47
Me, next! ;)
Deena Larsen
02:45:09
It is the ergodic gods, the spector of continual work, of continually identifying the lit.
Deena Larsen
02:45:58
Establish contact with the dead, we send signals to the dead as we addrss the living
Deena Larsen
02:46:12
This project speaks to the dead and speaks on behalf of the dead...
Deena Larsen
02:46:29
Speaks of the dead not to the dead--memorials all over jones town
Johannah Rodgers
02:47:34
Is it possible to separate speaking of the dead and to the dead?
Deena Larsen
02:47:53
The medical cases from the Nuremberg trails, are echoed today in the black bbodies, the refugees, climate change,
Deena Larsen
02:48:04
It is small body--the bodies are everywhere...
Deena Larsen
02:49:42
ELO at first was finding people with similar interests, but now we are expanding... but we have a similar phislopicah core--using the tools to challenge our culture and to broaden lit
Johannah Rodgers
02:49:49
the epistemological questions embedded in textual study/criticism/interprretation.
Johannah Rodgers
02:49:58
I like this idea a lot Caitlin.
Deena Larsen
02:50:05
We may not attract people who have that same philosophical core
Deena Larsen
02:50:23
Challenge--how broad can we make this?
Deena Larsen
02:50:57
Critical code studies book--seems open and goes back to early systems as well, Scot Rettburgs poetics book...
Johannah Rodgers
02:50:59
My background is in Comp Lit, and when I found the ELO, I felt like I had found a digital comp lit community.
Deena Larsen
02:51:07
Collecting people who are both making and thinking...
Deena Larsen
02:51:23
People looking toward the future
Lyle Skains
02:52:05
but are those aspects the core or the peripheral? Sometimes it depends on perspective
Johannah Rodgers
02:52:06
This also goes back to Tabbi’s idea of elit as world literature.
Deena Larsen
02:52:07
Integrating the Dada aspect, the surreal, the cultural, multiracial, gender
Lyle Skains
02:52:15
How does the peripheral move to the centre?
Deena Larsen
02:52:21
Revive the Literary Advisory board
Johannah Rodgers
02:52:30
The dada element is crucial.
Deena Larsen
02:52:48
Push the LAB back to the top--tap their expertise to help widen the field.
Renee Carmichael
02:52:49
I think Alan’s work speaks a lot to that because it also links this questioning to his experience, the daily, others can relate to it, to experience, whether the philosophical is understood or not it opens up a space for questioning..
Lyle Skains
02:53:03
YAAAAASSSSS, Anastasia did an incredible job! Recording it here for posterity.
Deena Larsen
02:53:04
Anastasia did an incredible job at ELO 2020~~~
Andrew Klobucar
02:53:08
Good salon. I need to zoom to another room. Thanks everyone for the invite. These are great. Good work Deena, Johannah et al.
Lyle Skains
02:53:19
Good to see you, Andrew!
Deena Larsen
02:53:57
Caitlin--Alan was haunting her practice in her doctoral work... I think the ghosts of all our ideas haunt our work..
Caitlin Fisher
02:54:34
this is like the encore moment ::stands with lighter::
Deena Larsen
02:54:58
Holds up the torch--we will continue these torches :)
Vinícius Pereira
02:55:08
Guys, I have to go too. Learned a lot today and am looking forward to attending the next salon. Thanks a lot, and congrats to Alan for the great presentation!
Deena Larsen
02:55:38
Early tool making and using transitions into today's exchange of tools.
Deena Larsen
02:55:46
Passing the ask/axe/axioms
Deena Larsen
02:55:55
The ax becomes subjectified.
Deena Larsen
02:56:29
Trandeau? wrote book on gestures and physicalities, we have always been mediated through tools in culture
Johannah Rodgers
02:56:53
The Economic Parabola. Is anyone familiar with the work on Media Economies being done in Germany? Krill?????
Johannah Rodgers
02:56:57
Kirill?
Deena Larsen
02:57:07
Alligators dream, amoebas pass on information..animals pass on the intelligences, and we pass on that through cultures..
Kirill Azernyi
02:57:24
I, not : /
Kirill Azernyi
02:57:29
*I'm
Johannah Rodgers
02:57:36
I’ll e-mail you some names/titles.
Johannah Rodgers
02:57:48
My german is terrible and much of that work has not been translated.
Kirill Azernyi
02:57:49
That would be great! Thank you
Johannah Rodgers
02:58:42
I think monthly works really well.
Johannah Rodgers
02:59:45
I really appreciate the consistency. More than once a month would be hard for me.
Renee Carmichael
02:59:58
also to get out of your own head for awhile, to listen to others, at least for me, it is very important in this moment
Johannah Rodgers
03:00:22
Thanks, Lyle! I haven’t visited it since the Orlando conference.
Waliya Yohanna
03:00:36
thanks everyone!
Johannah Rodgers
03:00:44
Great to see you Wailya!
Deena Larsen
03:01:15
Great to see you Wailya!
Renee Carmichael
03:01:17
Thank you!!!