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ELO Salon - Shared screen with speaker view
Deena Larsen
12:54
Agenda (in Pacific Time):8:00 - 8:10 Introductions—Dene8:10-8:30 Metadata on the Front End—Dene8:30-8:50 Metadata on the Back End—Richard8:50-9:00 Q&A
Deena Larsen
14:13
WElcome. Please chat me your email if you want to be informed about the other Second Tuesday Salons
Stella Wisdom
15:19
I would love to be informed of future Second Tuesday Salons, my email is stella.wisdom@bl.uk
Deena Larsen
17:55
It is really important to have the images of the physical objects--particularly as they are so rare now.
Deena Larsen
19:20
Can you see all versions in the metadata on the right side? E.g., Jane's work you have version 1 and 3, but I only see 1?
Deena Larsen
19:40
THANK YOU for putting this in World CAT and ELMCIP!
Deena Larsen
21:44
Releases always depended on whatever bugs were in the works, and Mark's time and availability.
Deena Larsen
22:08
MArk Bernstein, Chief Scientist, Eastgate Systems
Richard Snyder
23:28
Different versions of the work can be found via the search function -- at this time the metadata displayed to the right of each work's description is describing one specific version.
Deena Larsen
24:11
So wonderful. You could also have a lot of versions that were pre-publication, and that would need to be noted as well. I remember versions upon versions as we worked through workd!
Deena Larsen
26:02
Can you explain what you mean by "authority"?
Richard Snyder
26:38
I can answer that! "Authority" refers to an external authority that can verify the creator's identity.
Richard Snyder
27:11
We mostly use the Library of Congress "Name Authority" file (MADS) or ELMCIP
Deena Larsen
27:16
Can you give examples of procedure modalities?
Deena Larsen
27:34
So authority is like a proven provenance?
Alan Sondheim
27:56
A fair amount of my work and I assume others is based on very early calculator and mini-computer programming as well as physical objects that have no definitive date - wonder how that material wd. be included in a scheme that's computer/computation based?
Deena Larsen
28:02
Thank you for going beyond to the spirit behind ADA--allowing people to access works!
Deena Larsen
28:13
And it is great to have epilepsy warnings.
Richard Snyder
28:20
We have a separate field for provenance for the item -- the authority field is specifically to verify an entity like a creator, publisher, etc.
alan bigelow
28:30
What a thorough and informative extended schema. Wonderful!
Deena Larsen
28:30
Please add warnings for loudness as well :P
Dene Grigar
29:02
Yes, Deena. Sound is something we are planning to address
Deena Larsen
29:55
Work notes is a great field.
Dene Grigar
30:15
Yes, we are continuing to build the notes sections for both the Versions and the Copies
Deena Larsen
30:38
Interesting to see the tabs,--what is the thought behind other tabs and sheets?
Christine Wilks
31:46
NO
Dene Grigar
31:50
@deena the spreadsheet Richard is showing is our master spreadsheet. Each tab represents each collection in The NEXT
Christine Wilks
32:05
sorry for shouting
Dene Grigar
32:21
Chrstine, No to what?
Christine Wilks
32:57
Just answering Richard's question re. seeing empty spreadsheet
Dene Grigar
33:02
:)
Dene Grigar
34:31
My lab allows us to check the version of Storyspace and HyperCard, etc
Dene Grigar
34:50
It also lets us know if a work is aimed for Mac or Windows or both
Deena Larsen
35:43
How will the metadata be updated? Will you keep outdated metadata?
Alan Sondheim
35:46
Is there any space for computer languages?
Richard Holeton
35:59
There’s copyright and then there’s publication rights. As we’ve seen with Eastgate, those may be held by different people/entities.
Deena Larsen
36:08
Would there be different fields for each language or would all the info about languages go in the one field
Dene Grigar
36:12
@deena, we keep copies of the old spredsheets
Dene Grigar
37:30
Each language would be considered a different version and so be placed on its own row
Alan Sondheim
37:44
What is the rough size of the NEXT and how are you handling backup copies of the same?
Dene Grigar
37:59
We have about 3000 works in The NEXT
Alan Sondheim
38:27
Terabytes?
Dene Grigar
38:38
Alan, we are backing up numerous ways, such as at the server level on a regular schedule.
Alan Sondheim
38:50
Thanks -
Dene Grigar
39:16
We also backup on hard drives in various locations. I hold an entire copy of The NEXT at my home. Greg holds another at his office.
Dene Grigar
39:52
The grant that Stella, Erika and I just wrote would create a version of The NEXT to be created and maintained at Lancaster U in the UK
Alan Sondheim
40:17
that wd be excellent!
Stella Wisdom
40:21
Fingers crossed we get the funding
Dene Grigar
40:45
Yes. My vision is to have The NEXT held across the globe to ensure is safekeeping and continued growth
Deena Larsen
40:49
So Object would be a physical object?
Christine Wilks
41:08
Fingers crossed :)
Deena Larsen
41:14
What does local mean?
Dene Grigar
41:22
@stella, it is an ambitious proposal with a lot of firepower behind it. You being one of them
Alan Sondheim
41:41
With my work, it's often not published but exhibited in galleries or museums etc. - is there a space for this?
Dene Grigar
41:57
Yes, we are a museum and library
Alan Sondheim
42:30
Is there a space for listing in the NEXT?
Dene Grigar
43:00
You mean a list of exhibitions?
Dene Grigar
43:39
I am imagining that a work you exhibited would be held in The NEXT and show up in its own space like Douglas'
Alan Sondheim
43:40
No, Objects themselves.
Deena Larsen
43:43
It would be wonderful to include Elit in the wild @lyle
Dene Grigar
44:55
@alan: terabytes, we have about 2 on the server. But my hard drives are also holding all of the raw files for the media we produced for The NEXT, so they are 4-5 Terabytes each
Deena Larsen
45:13
Also, sometimes the same version was published in different media.
Alan Sondheim
45:20
Excellent!
Lyle Skains
45:24
Deena, we’re working to get as much of my “wild” elit into the ELC4 as we can, so there will be some in there!
Dene Grigar
45:27
Yes, that is why we version the work
Stella Wisdom
46:39
what makes elit "wild"?
Dene Grigar
46:47
We have to tamper with the code of works when we use Ruffle. So, we call the Ruffled work Version 2.0
Deena Larsen
46:54
So would a pure digital work be noted as a elit object? Are you distinguishing between pure digital journals and physical journals?
Dene Grigar
47:00
We will fix that, Ricahrd
Dene Grigar
47:30
We are not yet holding any physical journals in The NEXT
Deena Larsen
48:56
HAving the scholarly notes is great--reminds me of Bill Bly's We Descend ;P
Lyle Skains
48:58
@Stella, that’s what we call stuff we’ve found outside the realm of publications the ELO is used to - hasn’t been entered in Hyperrhiz, new river, ELCs, New Media Writing Prize, etc. We just sort of… come across it.
Dene Grigar
49:04
yes, Deena
Deena Larsen
49:09
Thank you for the preservation work!
Dene Grigar
49:18
We do have wild work, Lyle
Lyle Skains
49:26
I know! I love it. :)
Deena Larsen
49:29
Is there a separate entry for each of the PAthways readings?
Dene Grigar
49:29
:)
Stella Wisdom
50:22
thanks for the explanation Lyle :-)
Lyle Skains
50:42
I love wild e-lit. :D
Alan Sondheim
51:59
LOOK FOR DNA TRACES!!!
Deena Larsen
52:51
Also, Marjorie created special versions of the Book of Egypt for each of us... which we have always treasured...
Richard Snyder
53:12
Deena, it has been so cool to see the different copies of it!
Alan Sondheim
53:14
Absolutely - that would be hard to do today -
Deena Larsen
53:19
so the history of these works in people's/readers hands is so important
Mark Marino
53:27
remember, Margie put handmade spells into the work for each person she gave Book of Going Forth to
Deena Larsen
53:50
Questions:Is there a separate entry for each of the Pathways readings?
Mark Marino
54:32
whoa, are there any works in COBOL?
Richard Snyder
57:22
And then there are collections like Turbulence... :)
Deena Larsen
57:49
And there are collections of collections--like Regina Pinto's museum!
Alan Sondheim
58:46
Why a model instead of an image of the original? I'm thinking of my avatar work; they'd be incredibly difficult to model (they were!) -
Deena Larsen
59:16
What process do we have for continuing the ELL and NEXT?
Deena Larsen
59:33
What do we need to do to keep the NEXT alive for the next 50 years--or more?
Lyle Skains
59:49
My sleep-deprived brain just imagined a whole renewed Indiana Jones film with Dene as Indiana, tracking down all these objects (most of which various tricksters have stolen). “THESE BELONG IN THE NEXT!” she shouts at all of us who are terrible at keeping track of physical objects, much less digital ones.
Deena Larsen
01:00:03
I love it. Dene has that spirit!
Richard Holeton
01:00:17
Ha! @Lyle, great!
Lyle Skains
01:00:23
I’m not sure I want to give her a bullwhip. lol
Deena Larsen
01:00:32
PIE reminds me of Eastgate's mott: Commodity firmness, delight.
Deena Larsen
01:01:26
many copies is the best way to have that archive safe
Richard Snyder
01:02:05
I can also speak to the accessibility of The NEXT for the purposes of bringing new people into the e-lit community -- the site is already useful for me as someone trying to understand the field better.
Richard Holeton
01:02:31
re: many copies: see Stanford’s LOCKSS: https://www.lockss.org/
Dene Grigar
01:02:47
Yes, LOCKSS
Deena Larsen
01:03:00
We need to rope in the Media Archaelogy Lab with Lori Emerson, MITH, etc. and all the other scattered archives
xtine burrough
01:03:09
Yes!!!
Lyle Skains
01:03:22
Apologies if you’ve answered this: are there any eventual plans (i.e., planned funding attempts) to develop simulators for the “obsolete” works to be accessible online?
Deena Larsen
01:04:07
And we need volunteers!
Deena Larsen
01:04:56
I want to do the weekend workshop--please provide details@!@
Stella Wisdom
01:05:03
will the Flash workshop be online?
Lyle Skains
01:05:10
I’d like to - I have a piece I need to convert!
Mark Marino
01:05:44
wow, that workshop sounds fantastic!
Deena Larsen
01:05:49
CAn we set up a "to do" list and make it easy for people to volunteer their time?
Lyle Skains
01:05:58
RAD.
Richard Snyder
01:06:06
I think that's a great idea, Deena!
Deena Larsen
01:06:11
Incredible. YEs, we need King of Space!!!
Richard Snyder
01:06:36
King of Space was my first deep dive into an e-lit work! I love it.
Deena Larsen
01:07:06
And we need to save the unfinished works as well (still lamenting my Stone Moons...)
Alan Sondheim
01:08:38
We could use cuneiform! It tends to last! :-)
Stella Wisdom
01:09:09
we need to train the next generation of archivists and librarians to work with these collections
Deena Larsen
01:09:18
It is so wonderful to get the NEXT generation!
Mark Marino
01:09:53
is there a lesson for artists in all this? about how we should self document?
Alan Sondheim
01:10:23
A LOT of video hasn't lasted. Trust me on this.
Lyle Skains
01:10:23
Oh, man, the headache netprovs create for archiving!
Waliya Yohanna
01:10:26
Hello good day everyone!
Waliya Yohanna
01:10:53
Alan hi
Lyle Skains
01:11:01
Richard, is that a hint from you to us artists? Include our metadata for you? lol
Mark Marino
01:11:06
but does that warning close off emerging cutting edge platforms?
Alan Sondheim
01:11:09
Hi
Richard Snyder
01:12:02
@Lyle haha well I wouldn't say no! But we wanted to provide you all with these resources so you can look through them for yourself.
Lyle Skains
01:12:12
:D
Deena Larsen
01:12:34
For example, the demo flopy of MArble Springs looks nothing like the web version demo!
Deena Larsen
01:13:00
And all of our fooling around in dates will drive Dene and ELL nuts!
Richard Snyder
01:13:12
Yes, Deena! We are definitely still working through the best way to capture those differences. I find that to be such a fun and interesting challenge!
Deena Larsen
01:13:57
False information propagates more quickly than true info!
Deena Larsen
01:14:27
Yeah, but then you are relying on the artists' faulty memories...
Deena Larsen
01:14:43
Bill Bly's archivist work is amazing as well.
Alan Sondheim
01:14:57
A lot of my computer work goes back to the 1970s a bit even earlier; this doesn't fit in - the floppies (12") are long goneand the only records are the printouts -
Deena Larsen
01:15:14
My files at MITH are a total wreck-I just boxed it up and sent it.
Deena Larsen
01:15:32
Everything is a wreck--as we live our lives and we write new stuff rather than looking at the old.
Waliya Yohanna
01:15:54
Please what are the requirements to have standard archiving of e-lit in Africa?
Lyle Skains
01:15:54
I’m really terrible for keeping NOTHING physical. Comes from so much moving around the world.
Deena Larsen
01:16:02
You need to write the story of how you did the NEXT in Covid
Deena Larsen
01:16:13
THank you so much!!
Alan Sondheim
01:16:20
Thank you greatly!
alan bigelow
01:16:22
Thank you!
Maria Mencia
01:16:24
I thought this started just now!
Christine Wilks
01:16:30
Thank you
Waliya Yohanna
01:16:36
Thanks very much!
Richard Holeton
01:16:39
Great stuff. Nice to “see” everyone. Love the Indiana Jones analogy.
Christine Wilks
01:16:39
Yes, Dene, I'll get it to you
Christine Wilks
01:16:45
Thanks so much!
Stella Wisdom
01:16:49
thanks, this is excellent work and I'm keen to learn from you all
Maria Mencia
01:16:50
Clearly I arrived late :(
Waliya Yohanna
01:16:53
Thanks Dene!
Maria Mencia
01:18:05
I am in Spain and got my times wrong. Can we see the video? Thanks Dene and Deena.
Dene Grigar
01:18:25
Yes, Deena
Agnieszka Przybyszewska
01:18:27
What a lovely cat!!
Dene Grigar
01:18:30
Yes, Maria
Lyle Skains
01:18:56
@Agnieszka, that’s Moose. :)
Agnieszka Przybyszewska
01:19:43
Mine (Manolo) is sleeping... @Lyle
Lyle Skains
01:19:52
<3
Richard Snyder
01:20:26
Please feel free to reach out to me if you need ANYTHING! :)
Richard Snyder
01:20:32
Richard.snyder@wsu.edu
Mark Marino
01:20:42
great work Dene, Richard, et al.!
Richard Holeton
01:20:45
Thanks Richard S.
Alan Sondheim
01:21:35
could you send these also in email?
Dene Grigar
01:22:06
the-next.eliterature.org
Valérie BOUCHARDON
01:22:22
Thank you Dene and Richard for the presentation and the explanations. So much energy and enthusiasm! That's wonderful.Thank you so much for the elit field (this is Serge, using my wife's computer :-))
Stella Wisdom
01:22:25
is there a mailing list for the salons?
Lyle Skains
01:22:45
@Stella, yes. Deena will add you, and if not, I’ll forward
Deena Larsen
01:22:51
August 10: (RE)VERB Andrew Demirjian <ademirji@hunter.cuny.edu>Sept 14: Salon Salon Katie kschaag@gmail.comOct 12: Sharing stories privately: Vinicus/Marcia Mencia "viniciusmarquet@gmail.com" <viniciusmarquet@gmail.com>November 9: Matt Kirschenbaum’s double book launchDecember 14: Generative text 101 davidnunezruiz@gmail.com
Stella Wisdom
01:22:54
awesome, thanks :-)
Dene Grigar
01:23:08
thank you everyone for joining us today
Richard Snyder
01:23:21
Thanks so much for your support and enthusiasm!
Maria Mencia
01:23:46
Thank you very much and adios!