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ELO Salon - Shared screen with speaker view
Deena Larsen
01:21:43
This resource is carefully archived and orchestrated at
Deena Larsen
01:21:44
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vaoy5OMltUG3ldxCBBwugzHAL2xADc5HCwcFAZEbQ_k/edit
Kirill Azernyi
01:22:11
Thank you, Deena!
Hannah Ackermans
01:22:40
oh, thank you, Deena!
Alan Sondheim
01:23:06
Thank you!
Waliya Yohanna
01:23:15
Thanks @Deena
Deena Larsen
01:23:21
If you have not dived into We Descend, I highly recommend it. It is the mission of any curator — of this or any archive — to bring such traces of an ancient past into the present moment of *our* lives, and to provision their transmission to the generations to come.
Deena Larsen
01:24:35
We could write an entire archive about broken machines... we all have the stories, right Stephanie, Alan, Rob, and all
Brian Davis
01:25:13
March, 2019 interview at ebr: https://electronicbookreview.com/essay/descending-into-the-archives-an-interview-with-hypertext-author-bill-bly/
Deena Larsen
01:25:39
Bill is an amazing craftswriter
Deena Larsen
01:26:02
https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/ForewordtoWDVol3.html
Deena Larsen
01:27:34
As verbs the difference between deduce and educe. is that deduce is to reach a conclusion by applying rules of logic to given premises while educe is to draw out or bring out; elicit or evoke.
Deena Larsen
01:29:42
And this comes from Bill's refuge...
Vinicius Pereira
01:29:58
Great presentation!
Deena Larsen
01:31:05
Thank you Bill!
Alan Sondheim
01:32:11
Thank you! Wonderful presentation. I didn't know about the beginnings of ELO - that's really useful -
Deena Larsen
01:33:11
"Unassignable Writings whose origin &or transmission cannot be determined"
Deena Larsen
01:33:17
https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/OTHERWRITINGSofUNKNOWNPROVENANCE.html
Deena Larsen
01:33:36
are an example of Legamanon things that are said
Deena Larsen
01:33:46
The soul is goodThe soul is good.It is heavy, a counterweight within thee.The soul is a stone. It warms in the sun, and can hold its heat long. But it freezes in the dark.The spirit is built of breath, and rises ever toward the highest point in the body's room, escaping in the end when the last door opens.The soul remains planted in its ground, and returns to its earth, while the spirit disappears in the sky.
Deena Larsen
01:34:41
Navigation aids become their own form of narrative--including how you can not find materials... There is an overmind at work, still piecing this together... the Curator
Deena Larsen
01:36:00
====We Descend is an amazing form of media archaelogy--just the we descend writing in itself (at the Bill Bly collection) and the actual work itself, so there are many meta levels to Bill the Archivist!
Deena Larsen
01:36:58
Kyrill, Ilove the mjetaphor--we see te starelight--a snapshot in time, but we do not see the star...
Alan Sondheim
01:37:36
I wonder, if in relation to labor and duration for example, whether the word "Literature" in ELO and "writing" perhaps as well are too limiting at this point? Perhaps history, archeologies, weigh us down too much?
Deena Larsen
01:38:23
==========In We Descend, there is the remnants sayings--or not sayings. For example, — O stop that noise, ungrateful fool: show some respect for the crickets and their cousins, whatever they're saying. Unless you can sing, don't interrupt the music. https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/thedark.htmlunless you can sing, don't interrupt the musicConsiderable comment is made upon the fact that the customary attribution "as the Remnant say" does not appear with this well-known and venerable proverb, as is the case in almost every other instance of such quotation in the archives.https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/unlessyoucansing.html
Deena Larsen
01:39:02
Alan, I agree, the term "elit" is far too constricting--not only for this multilevel work, but for so many others
Brian Davis
01:39:02
Does We Descend propose a method for authenticating documents?
Brian Davis
01:39:19
Have your ideas about authentication changed since 1996?
Alan Sondheim
01:41:11
Adorno on Authenticity might be relevant here.
Deena Larsen
01:41:50
Yet in We Descend, there is no central authority. Even the writers themselves are only quoted as their own authority--and we don't even know who is quoting the. for example:(Legomenon forLAST ONEThe Author who calls himself the Last One may well be the last but one of the Ancients, a trenchant thinker struggling to comprehend from his lonely perspective what caused his race to destroy itself — sparing only himself and the young Boy who was his last companion.) https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/Legomenon-LASTONE.html
Alan Sondheim
01:42:59
Authenticiy is also a nexus of power; Adorno talks about Heidegger's relation to the conept, from what I remember; it becomes a problematic term -
Deena Larsen
01:44:36
Yet Bill undermines this belief system:"Text is our enemy: the utterance of the ghosts.Its promise to *endure* kindles ambition, the lust for immortal fame — which is what?" https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/enemy.html
Alan Sondheim
01:46:03
What is an "authentic pattern"? I literally don't understand the conjunction here.
Vinicius Pereira
01:48:41
I wonder if Jorge Luís Borges was maybe a reference for Bill, not only in terms of hypertextual architecture, but also for the themes of apocrypha, embedded narratives, and the motto "if this document is authentic"...
Rob Swigart
01:49:58
Borges, Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote
Deena Larsen
01:51:19
Actually, the word "authentic" in We descend, as I see it is a code for questinging the texts--who wrote them, who collected them, and what time frame they are in.
Deena Larsen
01:52:26
"Here's what matters. Everybody working on this stuff thinks it's one thing, but I *know* it's not that thing, it's something else. They see what I'm doing, and they say, in effect (though never quite to my face), "Why would *anybody* want to do *that*?" And maybe they're right — I mean about doing things their way: their way works fine, gets some results, some are even interesting." https://www.wedescend.net/WDvol3_ImpA1a/thisroad.html
Deena Larsen
01:52:54
From "UNKNOWN ANCIENT(s)Writings by one or more Author(s) predatingEgderus Scriptor"
Deena Larsen
01:54:25
===I knew we would hit copyrights sooner or later
Brian Davis
01:55:01
OKAY
Deena Larsen
01:55:13
At the very least, we need a paper version of all texts, buried somewhere
Brian Davis
01:55:17
Thanks
Alan Sondheim
01:56:31
This might be relevant or might not - anyway - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/08/robot-wrote-this-article-gpt-3 - look at this later - who owns the text?
Alan Sondheim
01:57:28
How much does a text need to be changed to avoid copyright issues?
Waliya Yohanna
01:58:14
Thanks @Alan!
Deena Larsen
01:58:58
https://www.wedescend.net/
Alan Sondheim
01:59:28
Thanks Deena and Bill -
Waliya Yohanna
01:59:55
thanks Bill and Deena!
Deena Larsen
02:01:08
Navigation mirroring the reader experience, and the writing experience...
Alan Sondheim
02:01:38
good point!
Deena Larsen
02:01:41
Good resource Alan, on owning the text!
Deena Larsen
02:02:18
And the real-life organization puts even more bureaufcacy on the text.
Alan Sondheim
02:02:26
JavaScript is a hole, not a w/hole - it brings corporate neoliberalism to the foreground -
Alan Sondheim
02:02:31
yes
Brian Davis
02:03:20
House of Leaves
Deena Larsen
02:04:08
Yes, the overlaid leaving of texts, writing, and rewriting is like House of Leaves
Deena Larsen
02:06:23
I confess. I have never read a hypertext "correctly!"
Rob Swigart
02:06:48
Paper books are just units of hypertext in a library
Deena Larsen
02:07:17
Rob?? Seriously??? Hypertext definition for me is something you can not translate/reduce to print!!!
Alan Sondheim
02:07:19
absolutely; the idea that books are "linear" is highly overrated.
Deena Larsen
02:07:58
Books may not be linear, but they allow you to see the whole book. Curtailing the navigation and access to papers allows a relationship with the reader, as Bill is explaining...
Rob Swigart
02:08:25
You can print any unit of hypertext. A book is just a long one
Deena Larsen
02:08:49
But the navigation creates the meaning... in and of itself. You can not print the link...
Alan Sondheim
02:09:00
when I read the "Bible" - I jump all over the place among languages for example. and "seeing the whole book doesn't really help to the extent that the book is also infinite in a way Defrenne's "world of the novel" for example. I see hypertext as cuts and openings which in a sense are absolute -
Deena Larsen
02:10:25
The storyspace map can transform a work into the architecture of the story itself--you can arrange the pages (nodes) in a spatial relationship that shows connections
Alan Sondheim
02:10:34
Here's a question which is maybe problematic - is there any really terrible hypertext works?
Rob Swigart
02:10:35
Navigating is taking another book off a shelf and opening it. A physical act, different in scale from clicking a link but not that different
Deena Larsen
02:11:09
Navigation links are carefully set up by the hypertext/elit author, and are not as random as a reader's pulling a book off the shelf.
Alan Sondheim
02:11:34
which gives the reader tremendous freedom for example re: the "Bible"
Deena Larsen
02:12:06
freedom to explore is the forest. Navigation paths are trails
Rob Swigart
02:12:07
Nothing random about it, just individual product of context and history. Hypertext is a pale reflection
Alan Sondheim
02:12:52
also hypertext exciting because you literally have no idea necessarily re: what comes next -
Deena Larsen
02:13:09
Hyper-mediation as the "author" laying down the navigation? or as readers creating their own paths, Kyrill?
Alan Sondheim
02:14:11
if the paths are already there... are three any hypertext works which you literally can't go back, where the previous is erased as you continue?
Kirill Azernyi
02:14:16
I would say all possible "lenses" between author and reader
Deena Larsen
02:14:34
Alan, yes, there are works like that... I can name some in a bit...
Alan Sondheim
02:14:42
William Gibson's cd-rom for example
Rob Swigart
02:16:16
Or being published by Eastgate
Alan Sondheim
02:16:28
:-)
Kirill Azernyi
02:16:48
Alan, Adam Carde's Varicella, for instance (if I remember correctly)
Brian Davis
02:16:53
The work of the curator
Deena Larsen
02:17:38
Aleatoric definition is - characterized by chance or indeterminate elements. How to use aleatoric in a sentence.
Deena Larsen
02:17:51
The curator becomes the message!
Alan Sondheim
02:18:11
why the "Bible" is important maybe in the discussion - because it's a palimpsest that negates predetermined paths, no matter what one believes or reads or what language (theOT is in Hebrew, Aramaic, but there are also Egyptian words for example) -
Brian Davis
02:18:20
And the messenger
Kirill Azernyi
02:18:31
Exactly!
Deena Larsen
02:18:39
The linen trunk--the archival version of a junk drawer
Deena Larsen
02:19:03
“Circle” by Caitlin Fisher This augmented reality (AR) work tells the story of three generations of women through a series of short poetic videos organized spatially on a table top installation.
Deena Larsen
02:19:17
https://iloveepoetry.org/?cat=155
Deena Larsen
02:20:11
And as the collection is passed along, being split up within the text mirrors the real life curation of the volumes being split up and resplit and rearranged...
Kirill Azernyi
02:20:19
*Cadre (sorry!)
Alan Sondheim
02:21:42
Can the volumes be read indepentently?
Brian Davis
02:21:57
It would be nice, Bill
Hannah Ackermans
02:22:28
that's great news, Bill :)
Brian Davis
02:22:36
Do you know if there are any intellectual property issues citing the second editor of vol1 in published material?
Deena Larsen
02:23:16
https://www.wedescend.com/ Don't go here.
Alan Sondheim
02:24:07
thank you!
Waliya Yohanna
02:24:15
Thanks
Kirill Azernyi
02:25:03
You mean we shouldn't descend there, Deena? : )
Alan Sondheim
02:27:26
you're assuming there will be an election -
Brian Davis
02:27:51
Media Ecology Association's Mary Shelley Award for Outstanding Fictional Work
Brian Davis
02:28:20
Lunch time!
Brian Davis
02:28:38
Thanks, Bill. Thanks, Deena.
Hannah Ackermans
02:28:44
Dinner time ;)
Kirill Azernyi
02:29:08
bedtime (almost)
Richard Holeton
02:29:17
Thanks much Bill and host Deena!
Hannah Ackermans
02:29:41
Thank you so much, Bill and Deena, this was amazing!